No, it is not. The world is full of people that don't know the tool, refuse to learn the tool, and blame the tool for those shortcomings. .
@sullybiker Agreed. Not everything has to be for everybody. We've already went through that for the past 20 years or so, and after two botched Windows releases and planned obsolescence of hardware by the current release, it still won't matter to those particular users.
@claudiom I'm all for making things better, but also that includes educating the end user, which is critical.
@sullybiker Absolutely. I mean, even your run of the mill Windows user or Mac user doesn't educate themselves enough to know how to resolve a problem, so why is the focus on Linux for these same things such a big deal?
@claudiom The saying that Linux and BSD let you do very stupid things in order to also be able to do very clever things is absolutely true. It's freedom, but the cost is eternal *vigilance.
@sullybiker Basically, "with great power comes great responsibility."
@fikran Actually, it recommends that all mainstream distributions implement failsafes(?) for end users that can't be bothered to read the fine manual or even a short warning. The warnings were transparent to the user, but a "proceed at your own risk" is available in an oddball event the user wants to do that.
Problem is that *some* mainstream distros are geared to those who are more technical (Arch, Slackware, etc.) and don't need such handholding bloat or limitations.
@fikran I actually did this with my PinePhone when I changed repo trees in the sources.list file. It still works, but I need to redo it. And that's fine, because I'm just tinkering with this device! However, I wouldn't do anything dangerous on my Fedora laptop which I use daily. Same with my OpenBSD laptops. If something were to go wrong, at least I have stuff backed up. Problem is even if you make it easy for the end user, they don't back up before things go wrong. @sullybiker
@fikran If we were to conform to the user in terms of driving, I'd be afraid to go outside! We take driving lessons to understand how to drive a vehicle and what the traffic laws are. It should be the same with computing. You have to meet half-way IMO. It can't be either of the extremes. @sullybiker @stsp
@sullybiker Just like there are some people that suck at driving, there are people that will just suck at computing (rather blunt way of saying it, but you know what I mean). Not everyone's going to understand, let alone take the time, to learn the command line. It takes patience and time, and not everyone is geared that way. For that, make a distro that is just for those users and provide said failsafe methods. But agreed that it shouldn't be over all distros. @fikran @stsp
"I think Macs are a good example - you have a full-fledged Unix system at your disposal, but you can also run high-level entirely."
AND YET, ....
I've seen macOS back since the Mac OS X name where Finder would just act up and the only way to resolve it was getting in that hacker mindset and diving into the Terminal. Not something the average user will do of course.
@fikran To add, it was even worse with classic Mac OS which was ALL about user-friendliness! If things went sour, you had to tediously disable Extensions and Control Panels until it stopped crashing. Only way to get down and dirty in that Mac OS was with ResEdit, and that in and of itself is worse of a nightmare compared to any command line, DOS, Unix shell, or otherwise. 😬 @stsp @sullybiker
Have you ever taught programming? People get - and – mixed up, “ vs ‘ vs `, / and \, etc. And they get genuinely stuck and give up. This isn’t to blame people, its that human brains are literally wired differently and stuff others can do people like you and I cannot and vice versa except with a high degree of difficulty. I’ll put it this way: It all comes down to failure tolerance. For my phone, I have a near zero level of tolerance. I want it to work and do not want to debug it - ever. There are even problems I probably could fix that I just gave up on (my keyboard spacebar is slightly off). With my computer, I have a very high level of tolerance (though ever since my kid, that’s changed). If stuff doesn’t work or crashes or I need to do manual maintenance, I will not mind that. Its kinda fun. I suspect that the vast majority of humanity have very low levels of tolerance. This would explain why the most the most successful Linux deployments in the world do not even have terminals: ChromeOS and Android. (They also come pre-Installed at stores). If my suspicion is correct, then whatever optimal distribution should be extremely simple to use, install software on, upgrade, does no demand console usage. There already is at least one good candidate that comes to mind: ElementaryOS. I haven’t really used Pop_OS much, but they seem solve the right problems too: pre-installed, clean interface that does not demand console usage and hardware support. What’s currently (hopefully not forever) lacking is being sold in stores.
@fikran @stsp @claudiom The problems start when you want to do something that's not prototypical, say a bleeding-edge GPU driver. There's no way around the fact that means drilling deep into some critical parts of the OS stack, and with that comes the risk. Every piece of software along that line has to work, and this has to be multipllied by all the variations in configuration.
@fikran @stsp @claudiom Some of the help sites form part of the issue, In that they encourage what I call administration-via-copypasta. For example the liberal use of sudo, to the extent the user does not understand in this context it's basically 'do this as root' and thus they do not understand the risk level.
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